Welcome to the fourth and final part of my interview with biblical counselor and author Dr. David Powlison.

David, what single bit of counsel has made the most significant difference in your leadership?

The shepherd must know that he is one of the Shepherd’s needy and beloved sheep: 2 Corinthians 1:4; 1 Corinthians 10:12–13. You can best give to others the very things that you are receiving and living.

Where in ministry are you most regularly tempted to discouragement?

I don’t tend to get discouraged in ministry. I think that I was convinced early on that evil is incomprehensibly deep and tangled, and that life is shadowed by death. The fewer the illusions, the less prone to disillusionment. Jesus came for all this sin and suffering, continues to enter in with light, mercy and power into imperfect and broken lives, will return to make right all that is wrong. “Tis mercy all, immense and free….” Kyrie eleison.

I do get discouraged simply as a man, by my own shortcomings, lovelessness, and weakness/astheneia. But time after time the place of discouragement has become the door for the mercies of Jesus to delight and refresh me.

Today, as I’m doing this written interview for CJ, I’m nearing the 3 week mark of a post-surgical recovery period. I’ve been quite slowed by the pain and fatigue. The process has been disheartening at times. But the very act of doing this interview (something that was not on my project list—see question above!) has brought me back to basics and invigorated me, helping restore me to the mindset of work and ministry.

Do you exercise? If so, what do you do? If not, why not? (Please be specific.)

I exercise by walking outdoors in some part of God’s creation where I can observe something beautiful—stream, field, tree, cloud, bird, light, rain, snow, mountain…. My physical exercise includes a major aesthetic component. (This is also part of how I answer the question below, about leisure). Sometimes I throw in a few sets of pushups or wind sprints to get the pulse racing and the muscles burning.

Currently, what sport do you like to play and/or watch?

Injuries and aging have pretty much put an end to sports. I loved surfing, basketball, football, softball, distance running, competitive swimming, cross-country skiing. I still occasionally do a little kayak surfing or boogie-boarding (when I visit my family in Hawaii), or some skiing (when we get 4" or more of snow).

On TV I’ll watch a little of all the major sports, when it comes to playoffs and championships. And every four years I watch swimming and track during the Olympics.

What do you do for leisure?

Among the highlights are hiking (both with Nan and alone), reading good fiction, cross-country skiing or kayaking (when opportunity presents), and playing with my granddaughter. I find that a half an hour of something both absorbingly mindful and mindlessly forgetful—a card game on my Palm Pilot, a computer strategy game, the Sunday crossword puzzle—can be refreshing. I love the ritual of reading the newspaper over a cup of coffee.

If you were not in ministry, what occupational path would you have chosen?

God made me to do what I am doing, shaping every aspect of both gifts and life experience. If I had to do some other job in order to support myself and my family, I’d do any honorable work as an occupation in order to enable my vocation in ministry. For me, doing ministry came with becoming a Christian.

If I had not become a Christian, I’m not sure what I would have done. I was never occupation-oriented. In fact, I was intensely alienated even from the idea of an occupation, and came close to becoming a dropout from society. I was repelled by the degree to which people sought personal identity and meaning from their occupation and achievements. My only aspiration had been to write honest and beautiful poetry, song lyrics, and fiction (not the most promising of occupations). I would likely have ended up either as a derelict or, if I’d stayed functional in society, as one of Thoreau’s “The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation.”

[Added by Dr. Powlison]

What one further question should C.J. be asking?

Who are your closest personal friends (outside your family)? What role do they play in your life and ministry?

Four men have been in my life through many years (40, 30, 20, and 15 years, respectively). We are honest with each other—a track record of loving concern creates a depth of basic trust and immediate honesty. We hold each other to Jesus Christ. We pray with and for each other. I need the mutual give and take, the simplicity of caring and candor both given and received.

Here’s a quotation that captures it for me: “Those who lack friends to open themselves unto are cannibals of their own hearts….This communicating of a man’s self to his friends works two contrary effects; for it redoubles joys and cuts griefs in half.” (Francis Bacon, “Of Friendship,” 1625)

Thank you, David!