Welcome back to my interview with Gareth Lloyd, senior pastor of Sovereign Grace Church in Merthyr Tydfil, Wales. Read part one of the interview
here.
Gareth, if you could study under any theologian in church history (excluding those men in Scripture), who would it be and why?
Jonathan Edwards just because he is the theologian I have spent most time reading of late! I love his grand vision of God and his desire that God be known not only with the mind but experienced (loved and enjoyed) in the heart.
What single piece of counsel (or constructive criticism) has most improved your preaching?
Don’t leave the scaffolding up when you get to the pulpit—the scaffolding is for the study alone! In other words, don’t bore a congregation with all the detail of your exegetical work, however fascinating it has been to you.
What books on preaching, or examples of it, have you found most influential in your own preaching?
The Supremacy of God in Preaching by John Piper.
Preaching the Whole Bible as Christian Scripture by Graeme Goldsworthy
Examples: Tim Keller because of his gospel-centredness and his consistent awareness of the unbeliever every time he preaches.
John Piper because of his elevation of the glory of God.
You C.J., because of the permeation of grace in all of your preaching and your ability to help the believer connect the dots from the gospel to life.
What single bit of counsel has made the most significant difference in your effective use of time?
This has been an area where I believe I have been weak, always being busy but often falling due to poor planning and prioritizing. I have recently been helped and provoked by the Sovereign Grace Leadership Podcast on the subject of “
The Pastor and His Time.” The encouragement to set aside 30–60 minutes on a Monday to plan priorities according to my roles has been beneficial.
Join me next time for the third and final portion of my interview with Gareth Lloyd.
Meet Gareth Lloyd.
Gareth, who is 37 years old, is the senior pastor of
Sovereign Grace Church in Merthyr Tydfil, Wales. He graduated from the Evangelical Theological College of Wales with a B.A. in Theological Studies. Gareth and his wife, Angela, have been married for 18 years and have seven children.
Gareth, thanks for your time! Please describe for us your morning devotions. What time do you wake up in the morning? How much time do you spend reading, meditating, praying, etc.? What are you presently reading?
I wake at 6:30. While Angela is caring for our newborn baby and toddler I get ready with four of our other children for an hour and a half drive to school. The outbound journey is spent mostly listening to and singing along to worship songs and on my home journey each day I listen to a sermon usually connected to one of the books I am currently reading in my devotions. At present I am using the Robert Roberts daily reading plan.
Of late, I have been reading through the book of Numbers and I have been listening to some messages by Iain Duguid. When I get home I usually spend approximately an hour reading and praying before launching into my work for the day.
I usually change my devotional reading plan each year. In the past I have used the Robert Murray McCheyne Reading Plan along with D.A. Carson’s notes. Last year I took just three Bible books for the year and worked through them slowly asking the usual questions as I read: What did the writer want the original reader to know? What significance does this have for us today? What difference is that going to make?
I try to pray through the Scriptures that I am reading, pursuing fellowship and intimacy with God before praying for family, the local church and the town of Merthyr.
What book(s) are you currently reading in these three categories: (a) for your soul, (b) for pastoral ministry, or (c) for personal enjoyment?
I’m not sure I have been as clear as to categorize them in this way! I guess there is something of an overlap between categories in the books I am currently reading:
Religious Affections by Jonathan Edwards.
Preaching the Whole Bible as Christian Scripture: The Application of Biblical Theology to Expository Preaching by Graeme Goldsworthy.
Daniel Rowland and the Great Evangelical Awakening in Wales by Eifion Evans.
George Whitfield: The Life and Time of the Great Evangelist in the 18th Century Revival by Arnold Dallimore.
John Wesley by Iain Murray.
Since the beginning of the year I have been planted in the early 18th century for much of my reading and am finding it a most exhilarating experience!
These are the books that I am reading through in a progressive, consistent manner. There are many more that I will dip into and skim through from time to time.
Apart from Scripture, what book do you most frequently re-read and why?
The Memoirs of Jonathan Edwards. It consistently stirs in me a passion to pursue holiness and experiential Christianity.
Jerry Bridges,
The Discipline of Grace. This book has helped me with my inclination to drift back into legalism. It is a great reminder to me of the implications of the gospel of grace.
C.J. Mahaney,
Humility. Likewise, I have a horrible inclination to make me, myself, and I the object of my attention.
When you finish a book, what system have you developed in order to remember and reference that book in the future?
I really need to be more systematic in order to retain more of what I read. However, I always read with a pen, underlining and making notes in my books. I then skim through the book after reading and jot down highlights in a personal notebook.
Join me next time for part two of my interview with my friend Gareth Lloyd.
April 28, 2009 by Tony Reinke
Categories: Pastoral ministry
Last week in Chicago at The Gospel Coalition National Conference, C.J. delivered a message to pastors titled “The Pastor’s Charge” (1 Peter 5:1-4). You can listen, download, and watch the message video here. Also, Joshua Harris presented a message at the conference—”Ministering in a Church-Hopping Society”—available here.
Welcome back to my interview with Mark Altrogge, senior pastor of Sovereign Grace Church (Indiana, PA). Read part one of the interview here and part two here.
Mark, what single bit of counsel has made the most significant difference in your effective use of time?
To read Getting Things Done by David Allen. And to buy Mindjet MindManager mind mapping software.
However, I liked the way David Powlison described his effective use of time in your previous interview. So I’m going to throw out Getting Things Done and Mindjet and start reading novels and going for walks.
What single bit of counsel has made the most significant difference in your leadership?
Years ago, your teachings on grace revolutionized my leadership style. Previously, I had a “me against them” attitude. I believed I had to whip my flock into shape against their will, as if they had dared me to try to make them love God. But you helped me understand that God’s grace gives believers his Spirit and hearts that desire to love and please him. My job is to point them to Christ who empowers them to overcome sin and carry out the longings he implants in them.
I command all leaders to listen to your message “Grace and the Adventure of Leadership.” Best message I ever heard.
Where in ministry are you most regularly tempted to discouragement?
I used to get discouraged at our church’s slow growth until I heard someone quote Spurgeon’s advice to small church pastors, “So you’re discouraged about leading a small church? Is it enough to be accountable for on judgment day?” Cured me.
Over the years God has worked in me grace to trust that Christ, not me, will build his church. This helps counter my temptations to discouragement over my manifold inadequacies and failures. And your reminder, C.J., that a church is not built on one sermon, but over many years, always encourages me.
Do you exercise? If so, what do you do? If not, why not? (Please be specific.)
I jog seasonally, only in warm weather. I don’t do anything in cold weather. This goes back to the one and only time I went deer hunting. We took our positions in the frigid dark at 6 a.m. I was so miserably cold (and bored) that by 8:00 I had consumed my whole thermos of coffee and all my lunch. For the rest of the day I sat there hunched over, shivering, teeth chattering, holding an icy rifle, that I never shot once. Scarred me for life.
I jog 2–4 times a week, 20–30 minutes, using my patented 1/1 interval training, which I will now share with the world. I jog for 1 minute, then walk for 1 minute, all the while telling myself I can do anything for 1 minute. So when I’m dragging my carcass up a hill, I cheerfully encourage myself saying, “I only have to do this for 1 minute, then I can walk.”
Currently, what sport do you like to play and/or watch?
Why does it always have to be about sports, C.J.? I’d like to know what art museum are you currently visiting? What abstract expressionist most influenced your life? If not, why not?
Ok, my favorite sport is curling. No, professional origami. Hey, I spent 19 years of my life at little league fields watching my kids. I raised a son who wrote a sports book. What more do you want from me?
What do you do for leisure?
Hunting and lacrosse.
Actually, I like to go out to dinner with Kristi. And Barnes & Noble. I like to read, write songs, watch Iron Chef America. I like to wander through the streets of any city with a camera and take photos of sewer covers, wrought-iron gates and neon signs (remember I was an art major). Coffee shops.
If you were not in ministry, what occupational path would you have chosen?
When Brent Detwiler talked me into becoming a pastor I was teaching Elementary Art, hoping to someday teach art at the university level. So I guess I would have become a professional athlete.
My friend, thank you for a most memorable and insightful interview!
Audio and PDFs from the 2009 Sovereign Grace Ministries Pastors Conference (April 6-8) are now
available for download.
Here is a list of the conference messages:
General Sessions
- The Pastor’s Charge, Part 1 (C.J. Mahaney)
- The Pastor’s Teaching (Jeff Purswell)
- The Pastor’s Mission (Dave Harvey)
- The Pastor’s Legacy (Jared Mellinger)
- The Pastor’s Charge, Part 2 (C.J. Mahaney)
Seminars for Men
- The Pastor and Christian Liberty (Craig Cabaniss)
- The Pastor and College Ministry: Compelling Reasons to Take the Gospel to the Campus (Bill Kittrell)
- The Pastor and His Community: How the Gospel Informs Our Mission beyond the Church (Mark Dever)
- The Pastor and His Older Children: The Possibilities and Perils of Parenting Teens (Bob Kauflin)
- The Pastor and Preaching: How to Start a Sermon, End a Sermon, and Prepare the Middle of a Sermon (Mike Bullmore)
- The Pastor and Small-Group Leaders (Jim Donohue)
- The Pastor and the Counseling Process (Andy Farmer)
- The Pastor and the Priority of Plurality (Dave Harvey)
- The Pastor and the Spirit: An Exposition of 1 Corinthians 12–14 (Jeff Purswell)
- The Pastor and Titus 2 (Aron Osborne)
- The Pastor and Youth Ministry: The Priority of Teaching for Parents and Teens (Steve Whitacre)
Seminars for Women
- The Pastor’s Wife and Culture: What Feminism Has Done to Femininity (Carolyn McCulley)
- The Pastor’s Wife and Ministry Opportunities: Five Great Deals She Won’t Want to Miss (Carolyn Mahaney)
Visit the
Pastors Conference page to download the audio recordings and all available PDFs.
Welcome back to my interview with Mark Altrogge, senior pastor of Sovereign Grace Church (Indiana, PA). Read part one of the interview
here.
Mark, what book(s) are you currently reading in these three categories: (a) for your soul, (b) for pastoral ministry, or (c) for personal enjoyment?
(a) for my soul:
A few months ago, my friend
Bill Kittrell recommended I read
The Righteous Man’s Refuge, in the Works of John Flavel, and it was so encouraging I’ve continued to read other sections, currently
The Fountain of Life. I also recently enjoyed
A Gospel Primer by Milton Vincent,
Spectacular Sins by John Piper, and
Husbands Love Your Wives by Larry McCall.
(b) for my pastoral ministry:
Preaching the Whole Bible as Christian Scripture, by Graeme Goldsworthy, which is brilliant and makes my head hurt, since this Goldsworthy guy obviously had more theological training than a degree in painting. Recently read
Simple Church: Returning to God’s Process for Making Disciples by Thom S. Rainer and Eric Geiger, which contains helpful ideas for assessing our church’s process of making disciples.
(c) for my personal enjoyment:
Made to Stick by Dan and Chip Heath on how to make abstract ideas simple, concrete, and memorable.
Writing Tools: 50 Essential Strategies for Every Writer by Roy Peter Clark, chock full of simple, stimulating ways to strengthen writing.
The Road by Cormac McCarthy, a dark story about a father and son in a post-apocalyptic world (I don’t even know what that means). Read it both for enjoyment and to try to learn from McCarthy’s stark and poetic writing style.
Apart from Scripture, what book do you most frequently re-read and why?
Favorite book I’ve read more than once:
The Mystery of Providence by my man John Flavel. God’s providence fills me with wonder and faith.
When you finish a book, what system have you developed in order to remember and reference that book in the future?
Underlining. Occasionally I type quotations in a Google Notebook.
If you could study under any theologian in church history (excluding those men in Scripture), who would it be and why?
I know he might not be the foremost theologian, but I wish I could have attended Charles Spurgeon’s lectures. I am moved by his passion for Jesus, the gospel, and people. And I love his sense of humor and his illustrations.
What single piece of counsel (or constructive criticism) has most improved your preaching?
When Kristi has said, “Well, it wasn’t one of your better messages.”
Or when fellow pastor Joe Ryer has said, “I think it would have been better if you hadn’t spent 40 minutes on your first point, then 5 minutes on points 2 through 10.”
These have been helpful.
Actually, I think one of the best pieces of counsel is, “What does this passage teach me about Christ?” I believe Jeff Purswell said it.
What books on preaching, or examples of it, have you found most influential in your own preaching?
Christ-Centered Preaching by Bryan Chapell. Everything in the message must drive toward application.
C.J., your humble example of revealing your own sins and struggles in messages is one of the most significant things I’ve learned about preaching.
This is meaningful encouragement my friend! Thank you.
Join me next time for part three of my interview with my friend Mark Altrogge.
Meet Mark Altrogge, 59.
My friend Mark is a gifted songwriter and the author of worship songs like:
- I Stand in Awe
- In the Presence
- I’m Forever Grateful
But Mark is also a pastor, the senior pastor of
Sovereign Grace Church in Indiana, Pennsylvania. He has been serving this church for 28 years.
He and his wife, Kristi, have been married for 29 years and have five children. Mark earned a B.A. in Art Education and a Masters in Painting from Indiana University of Pennsylvania. “This has helped me a lot in pastoral ministry,” he says in a trademark jest.
Although Mark is the least gifted athlete in all of Sovereign Grace Ministries, he is one of the funniest men I know. Both of these qualities will surface throughout my interview.
Thanks for your time, Mark! Please describe your morning devotions. What time do you wake up in the morning? How much time do you spend reading, meditating, praying, etc.? What are you presently reading?
Can I have the question about leisure first?
I rise between 6 and 6:30 a.m., make myself a cup of nuclear dark roast coffee, spend a few minutes thanking God for the gift of sleep and protection, and for the blood of Christ that enables me to draw near. I often pray John Piper’s I-O-U-S (INCLINE my heart to your word, OPEN my eyes to see wonderful things in your word, UNITE my heart to fear you, and SATISFY me with your love), then attempt to focus my bleary eyes on the Word.
My goal is “to have my soul happy in the Lord” (George Mueller), so I don’t read much or fast.
I read sequentially through the Bible, (with occasional breaks to read other books) alternating between the New Testament and Old. When I finish a NT book, I read through an OT book, and so on. I usually read a chapter or two a day, taking about 30 minutes, underlining with my trusty blue china marker. Currently reading 1 Samuel.
I pray for approximately 30 minutes. I write the day and date at the top of a page in my Moleskine journal, followed by a Scripture or quote I read that morning, which I use as a springboard for praise and prayers. I write for about 10 minutes—nothing long or profound. I write because it slows me down and helps me meditate.
Then I grab my prayer notebook and pray through one of the following sections:
- Kingdom/Persecuted Church,
- Family,
- Church,
- Salvation,
- Current Needs,
- I finish with specific requests for myself, family and friends.
Excellent. Thank you, my friend. Please join me next time for part two of my interview with Mark Altrogge.
Welcome back to my interview with Bill Kittrell, the senior pastor of Cornerstone Church of Knoxville (TN). Read part one of the interview here and part two here.
Bill, what single bit of counsel has made the most significant difference in your leadership?
God is most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in him. (John Piper)
Only the humble can see evidence of grace in those in need of correction. (C.J.)
“Am I now seeking the favor of God or of men? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a bondservant of Christ.” (Galatians 1:10)
Christians need the gospel every day after their conversion. (Jerry Bridges)
Where in ministry are you most regularly tempted to discouragement?
The leadership of my pastoral team. Though they are the finest men I know—and their wives are wonderful wives and mothers—I often feel I do not serve them effectively and fail to provide the kind of leadership and care I think they should receive.
Do you exercise? If so, what do you do? If not, why not? (Please be specific.)
Yes. Usually 5 days a week. Three times per week I do 50 minutes on my elliptical machine. Twice per week I do a perfect pushup routine / Navy SEAL total body workout. I also have a road bike I ride when the weather is nice.
Keep in mind that I am the best athlete in Sovereign Grace Ministries (besides Mickey Connolly, who is too old to do much now).
For readers not familiar with Sovereign Grace, this answer is a form of taunting me, and not intended to encourage Mickey. Truth be told, both Bill and Mickey are envious of my athletic ability. Please pray for these men, that they be content with their own measure of gifting and rejoice with those who are more gifted.
Currently, what sport do you like to play and/or watch?
I play golf more than anything and b-ball when I can.
I watch all things that are Big and Orange, i.e., the University of Tennessee / Knoxville (with one exception I won’t mention). I especially like football and men’s b-ball. I also like NCAA football and b-ball in general, the NFL, and major championship golf, or any tournament where my man Phil Mickelson is playing.
What do you do for leisure?
Like all good disciples I fish (John 21:3) and (more importantly) I fly fish. This is how Norman Maclean begins his book, A River Runs Through It:
In our family, there was no clear line between religion and fly fishing. We lived at the junction of great trout rivers in western Montana, and our father was a Presbyterian minister and a fly fisherman who tied his own flies and taught others. He told us about Christ’s disciples being fishermen, and we were left to assume, as my brother and I did, that all first-class fishermen on the Sea of Galilee were fly fishermen and that John, the favorite, was a dry-fly fisherman.
If you were not in ministry, what occupational path would you have chosen?
I received a degree in Forestry because I would have liked to have been a naturalist in a national park, etc., explaining God’s wonderful creation to guys like C.J., who couldn’t tell the difference between a ponderosa pine and a mule deer.
Laugh out loud funny (and sadly true). Thanks for the interview, my friend.
Welcome back to my interview with Bill Kittrell, senior pastor of Cornerstone Church of Knoxville (TN). Read part one of the interview here.
Bill, if you could study under any theologian in church history (excluding those men in Scripture), who would it be and why?
Maybe Martin Luther because I think it would include a lot of laughter, and I like to laugh. Also because of his grasp of God’s sovereignty and grace that produced in him a life of faith and courage (I need this). Also because I think he would be patient with me regarding my sin.
But since I couldn’t do German or Latin, R.C. Sproul would be perfect. He’s alive and a Steelers fan! I’m available.
If this includes pastor/theologians it would be hands down John Flavel. He was a man of faith and courage, a fine theologian, and a careful and caring pastor.
What single piece of counsel (or constructive criticism) has most improved your preaching?
It might not qualify as a single piece of counsel, but Jeff Purswell spent a couple of hours reviewing my preaching notes one day and trying to be, well, kind. He marginally succeeded.
Though I had heard this counsel before, that day Jeff was, um, more persuasive. My notes read:
The proposition communicates the Intended Redemptive Effect (I.R.E.) of the sermon—the purpose of the sermon. The prop is not just restating the info in the text.
Get the prop by answering these questions: What does God want this text to get done in this congregation this Sunday? What is the purpose of this sermon? God gave us this text to accomplish something in CCK [Cornerstone Church of Knoxville] today—what is it?
Every text has a claim. It places a claim on us: our heart; our life; our beliefs. What is the text saying today? What is the claim it is making on us?
Actually, now that I think back about it, Jeff was harsh with me that day.
What books on preaching, or examples of it, have you found most influential in your own preaching?
Books: Preaching and Preachers by Lloyd-Jones; Preach the Word edited by Ryken and Wilson; The Preacher and Preaching edited by Logan; Christ-Centered Preaching by Chapell; The Supremacy of God in Preaching by Piper; Feed My Sheep: A Passionate Plea for Preaching published by Soli Deo Gloria.
Example: C.J., I’ve tried to follow your example with severe gifting limitations, which has been depressing at times. But I can’t imagine trying to preach without your leadership and example.
What single bit of counsel has made the most significant difference in your effective use of time?
I remember the story you tell, C.J., of someone asking you after your daughter Nicole was born, “I bet Nicole is the apple of your eye?” And C.J. you responded by saying, “No, my wife Carolyn is the apple of my eye.”
I learned from this counsel (20+ years ago) how to lead my home with an emphasis on my relationship with Cheri. Now that my kids are growing up, getting married, and dumping me like a bad habit, I am grateful that Cheri is my best friend. I am grateful for all the times we have invested in our relationship over all other relationships.
C.J. you have also said that most men fail in cultivating romance with their wives because they fail to put their plans for romance in the calendar (which is required to make sure the above happen). So that helped, too.
Join me next time for the third and final portion of my interview with Bill Kittrell.
Meet Bill Kittrell, 49.
Bill is the senior pastor of Cornerstone Church of Knoxville (TN), a church he planted 25 years ago. He and his wife, Cheri, have been married for 29 years and have four children and one granddaughter.
Bill earned a B.S. in Forestry from the University of Tennessee. Yep, forestry. No comment.
Bill, thanks for taking a moment to answer my questions! Please describe your morning devotions. What time do you wake up in the morning? How much time do you spend reading, meditating, praying, etc.? What are you presently reading?
If I am sleeping well I usually wake up between 5 a.m. and 6 a.m. I spend approx 2 hours in reading, prayer, etc. For my devotions I am currently reading the Gospel of Luke, the Psalms, and 2 Chronicles.
What book(s) are you currently reading in these three categories: (a) for your soul, (b) for pastoral ministry, or (c) for personal enjoyment?
For my soul:
The Mystery of Providence by John Flavel.
Stand: A Call for the Endurance of the Saints by John Piper, Justin Taylor, Jerry Bridges, Randy Alcorn, Helen Roseveare, and John MacArthur.
The Sermon on the Mount by Sinclair Ferguson.
Systematic Theology by Charles Hodge.
For pastoral ministry:
John Calvin: A Heart for Devotion, Doctrine, & Doxology edited by Burk Parsons.
Lloyd-Jones: Messenger of Grace by Iain Murray.
The Cross and Christian Ministry by D.A. Cason.
Various commentaries on 1 Corinthians.
For personal enjoyment:
American Lion: Andrew Jackson in the White House by Jon Meacham.
The War Within: A Secret White House History 2006–2008 by Bob Woodward.
Abraham Lincoln: Great American Historians on Our Sixteenth President by Brian Lamb and Susan Swain.
Mountain Men and Fur Traders of the Far West: Eighteen Biographical Sketches by LeRoy R. Hafen and Harvey L. Carter.
Apart from Scripture, what book do you most frequently re-read and why?
I would re-read these about the same amount:
Living the Cross Centered Life; Humility; Sex, Romance, and the Glory of God by C.J.
The Pleasures of God; Desiring God; Future Grace by John Piper.
Disciplines of Grace by Jerry Bridges.
Works of John Flavel.
When you finish a book, what system have you developed in order to remember and reference that book in the future?
In books that I do write in, I dog-ear the page and write a topic on the top of the page. My assistant copies the page and files it under that topic.
In books that I don’t write in, I dog-ear pages and my assistant copies the page and puts it in a notebook.
Join me next time for part two of my interview with my friend Wild Bill.