July 7, 2010 by Tony Reinke
Categories: Interviews
Recently C.J. was invited to join Mark Dever in the latest 9Marks Leadership interview with Greg Gilbert, author of
What Is the Gospel? (Crossway, 2010). The interview covers the gospel, the kingdom, the church, and how these three are both related and distinct. Along the way Greg displays his unique gift of speaking backwards.
ereh netsiL
Welcome back to the conclusion of my interview with Phil Sasser, senior pastor of
Sovereign Grace Church in Apex, North Carolina (part one
here).
Phil, what books on preaching, or examples of it, have you found most influential in your own preaching?
I have been most inspired by
The Sacred Anointing by Tony Sargent and
Between Two Worlds by John Stott. I have been most practically instructed by
Christ-Centered Preaching by Bryan Chapell.
Of contemporary preachers, I have been probably most influenced by C.J. Mahaney and John Piper. While C.J.’s use of humor and illustrations is a challenge to some of us non-funny, pedantic pastors, his gospel-centered emphasis on application is, in my humble opinion, without equal. John Piper’s preaching emphases on the glory of God, the love of sound doctrine, and passionate commitment to the gospel always inspire me to resist the temptation to entertain or tickle the ears of those to whom I preach.
What single bit of counsel has made the most significant difference in your effective use of time?
My father once told me that you could determine what a man would turn out to be by two things: the friends he kept and the books he read. My father’s love of reading and commitment to spend time doing it was one of the many wonderful gifts that he gave me.
The time I've spent reading has been significant but the fruit has been immeasurable. Jonathan Edwards has two excellent sermons that have been most helpful in my understanding of the importance of the effective use of time: “The Preciousness of Time and the Importance of Redeeming It” from Ephesians 5:16 and “Procrastination or the Sin and Folly of Depending on Future Time” from Proverbs 27:1.
I have an aversion to contemporary time management books.
What single bit of counsel has made the most significant difference in your leadership?
It is very difficult to identify the most significant. I suppose that being more aware of the evidences of grace in a person’s life than his/her sin is one of the most significant. My heart's natural inclination is toward pride and self-righteousness. Those natural tendencies are the enemies of our soul. They leads us to ungodly appraisals of ourselves and others. Being intentional in recognizing the Spirit's work of grace in others is a powerful antidote to censoriousness and a negative view of others.
Having the privilege and responsibility to care for the souls of others requires that I have a grace-filled perspective of them. Seeing the fruit of the Spirit first makes me freshly aware of how powerfully God works in a person's life. My eye becomes more attuned to the effectual work of the gospel. It gives me a better perspective even on the challenging aspects of pastoral care. I am filled with a greater appreciation for others and a greater faith for their continued growth in godliness.
Where in ministry are you most regularly tempted to discouragement?
As our church as grown, I have become more aware of my inadequacies in leading our pastoral team. I am very comfortable in a small church setting. Leading a team of pastors is more of a challenge for me. God has seen fit to overcome my inadequacies by giving us a very godly and mature team. And I have benefited greatly by my relationships with other Sovereign Grace pastors of larger churches.
Do you exercise? If so, what do you do? If not, why not? (Please be specific.)
I have a gym membership and try to get there 2 or 3 times a week. Mostly I'm trying to rehab my new left knee. I love to play golf, but it is of minimal exercise value.
Currently, what sport do you like to play and/or watch?
My first love was baseball, but those days are long gone, so it has been replaced by golf. My favorite sports to watch are college football (Ohio State), college basketball (Ohio State and N.C. State), major league baseball (Reds), and golf.
What do you do for leisure?
Reading is the constant. I also watch romantic comedies with Cassie. I'll probably catch a lot of grief for this admission. When alone I sometimes listen to classic rock and roll. Dylan, The Byrds, and Paul Simon are at the top of that list. I have also been know to shoot pool at the local pool hall and I have a weakness for online chess.
If you were not in ministry, what occupational path would you have chosen?
My first profession was a pharmacist (I sold drugs legally as opposed to C.J.), but if I had to choose again, something other than vocational ministry, I would either be a teacher (high school or college) or a lawyer.
My friend, you would have made an excellent history teacher. I learn new stuff about history whenever I am with you! But I’m so glad that instead of teaching history you were called to teach God’s Word and pastor the wonderful local church in Apex.
Over the past couple of years I’ve done a series of interviews so that you can “meet” men like John Piper, Carl Trueman, Wayne Grudem, Ligon Duncan, Mark Dever, David Powlison, and Thabiti Anyabwile. These are men I deeply love and respect. We asked them a set of questions that resulted in some very insightful answers.
But I also like asking these questions of “ordinary” pastors, men less recognized who are laboring faithfully in their local churches. There is nothing ordinary about these men. I consider them extraordinary! I think their work serving the local church is the most important work being done today, work that is worthy of high esteem (1 Thessalonians 5:12–13).
Today I want you to meet one extraordinary ordinary pastor: Phil Sasser.
Phil serves as the senior pastor of Sovereign Grace Church in Apex, North Carolina. He has served at that church for 16 of his 29 years in ministry.
Phil and his wife, Cassie, have been married for 40 years and have five children and 15 grandchildren.
Meet Phil Sasser.
Phil, please describe your morning devotions. What time do you wake up in the morning? How much time do you spend reading, meditating, praying, etc.? What are you presently reading?
I have some insomnia, so wake up time can vary somewhat. Usually I get up between 6 AM – 7 AM. The first 45 minutes in my office is spent in reading, meditation, and prayer. The M’Cheyne Reading plan has served as a base for my daily Bible reading. This year, I am supplementing M’Cheyne by reading two pages from Herman Bavinck’s Our Reasonable Faith. I have a daily prayer agenda that varies with each day of the week.
What book(s) are you currently reading in these three categories: (a) for your soul, (b) for pastoral ministry, or (c) for personal enjoyment?
(a) Charity and Its Fruits by Jonathan Edwards (this is about my fifth time reading through it) and The Work of Christ by G. C. Berkouwer.
(b) Memoirs of an Ordinary Pastor by D. A. Carson
(c) Truman by David McCullough
Apart from Scripture, what book do you most frequently re-read and why?
Redemption Accomplished and Applied by John Murray is one. Murray’s treatment of the atonement is outstanding even though the book is relatively short. It is very rich in content and insight. Murray also covers doctrines such as our union with Christ, adoption, and glorification which sometimes are omitted from discussions on the atonement.
When you finish a book, what system have you developed in order to remember and reference that book in the future?
By the grace of God I have a good memory. Or is it that I can’t remember what I’ve forgotten? But if it is a particularly good quote, I copy it and put it in my sermon files on the pertinent subject or text.
If you could study under any theologian in church history (excluding those men in Scripture), who would it be and why?
John Calvin, because of both his depth and breadth of theological writing. There is a wonderful simplicity in his commentaries. He is writing to the ordinary pastors of his day, so he “cuts to the chase” quickly. Calvin’s commentaries have a focus on the gospel and the doctrines of grace. On the other hand, you can soar with Calvin in The Institutes.
What single piece of counsel (or constructive criticism) has most improved your preaching?
C.J.’s emphasis on the centrality of the gospel has obviously affected every aspect of my pastoral ministry. That is especially true of my preaching. I grew up, spiritually, in an atmosphere where the gospel was often marginalized or overshadowed by other, more secondary doctrines such as spiritual gifts, discipleship, eschatology, or ecclesiology. While these are important biblical themes, they must never supplant the gospel in focus or priority in preaching. We must never assume the gospel and, as C.J. has emphasized, there should be a sighting of the gospel (the cross & resurrection) in every sermon. This emphasis has done more, I think, to improve my preaching than any other counsel or criticism.
To be continued tomorrow in part 2...
January 22, 2010 by C.J. Mahaney
Categories: Interviews | Reading
If you haven’t met Carl Trueman you are in for a ride that will take us, well, nobody knows. All we can be certain of is that Bruce Springsteen will likely appear at some point.
Dr. Trueman’s official title is
Professor of Historical Theology and Church History at Westminster Theological Seminary in Philadelphia. He describes himself as a British round peg jammed into an American square hole.
He has written, contributed to, or edited a
library of books. He is also the author of many “critical writings” and “unpopular essays” that appear online and have been published in two books:
The Wages of Spin: Critical Writings on Historic and Contemporary Evangelicalism (2005) and
Minority Report: Unpopular Essays on Everything from Ancient Christianity to Zen Calvinism (2007).
You can keep up with his most recent essays at the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals website
here.
In his essays Carl teaches lessons from history and pokes a bit at the evangelical church’s fondness for therapeutic leanings, entertainment, celebrity culture, and flippancy. And he stabs away with one index finger tap at a time. Carl
writes:
I take some perverse pride in the fact that I can only type with one finger on each hand, romantically seeing this lack of polish as making me the modern equivalent of the 1930s hack journalist, cigarette hanging from the corner of his mouth, glass of bourbon on the bedside table, hammering out copy on an old typewriter in a dingy motel room.
That’s Carl. And with quotes like this we can be certain that 200 years from now there will be a Carl Trueman Society where enthusiasts gather to exchange favorite lines and lament that they could not meet the man in person. This interview is for them.
Meet Carl Trueman.
Carl, thanks for your time. Please describe your morning devotions. What time do you wake up in the morning? How much time do you spend reading, meditating, praying, etc.? What are you presently reading?
My children have to be at school by 7:30, so I rise at about 6:15 to 6:30. I usually wait until I arrive at work, ca. 8 a.m., to have devotions. Westminster offices do not open till 8:30 so this gives me a half hour of peace and quiet. I typically read four chapters of the Bible. I read continually from Genesis to 2 Chronicles; from Ezra to Malachi (excluding the Psalms); from Matthew to Acts; and from Romans to Revelation; I finish with a Psalm or two, reading continually through the Psalter. At this precise moment, I am in Numbers, Job, John, and 1 Corinthians, with the daily Psalm being 143. Prayer then involves adoration, confession, thanksgiving, and supplication. The simple ACTS pattern that I learned at college.
What book(s) are you currently reading in these three categories: (a) for your soul, (b) for pastoral ministry, or (c) for personal enjoyment?
(a) I have recently reread
Pilgrim’s Progress. A brilliant, deceptively simple masterpiece whose characters never cease to amuse and provoke. I’m also about to start Tom Schreiner’s
Magnifying God in Christ: A Summary of New Testament Theology, just released by Baker.
(b)
Pastoral Theology in the Classical Tradition by Andrew Purves. A student recommended this book to me after a class I gave on the pastoral manuals written by John Chrysostom and Gregory the Great. It is a study of these men, plus Gregory Nazianzus, Martin Bucer, and Richard Baxter, as they reflected on the task of being a pastor. Much that they have to say (for example, how to handle criticism) is of perennial relevance; and they also focus on what is of lasting significance in the ministerial task, not the kind of managerial/consumerist impulses which drive much pastoral theory today.
(c) Ian Ker’s biography of John Henry Newman,
Fergus Kerr’s Twentieth-Century Catholic Theologians and Ruth Rendell’s
Portobello (I’m a sucker for hard-boiled and psychological crime fiction—anything by Raymond Chandler, Ian Rankin or Ruth Rendell).
Apart from Scripture, what book do you most frequently re-read and why?
This is easier to answer in terms of authors: I constantly dip into Martin Luther’s writings; I appreciate James Packer’s books; I enjoy John Henry Newman’s writings, especially his sermons; and I find the great creeds and catechisms of the church to be a great source of delight—they keep my faith simple, focused on the essentials, and in touch with the church throughout the ages.
When you finish a book, what system have you developed in order to remember and reference that book in the future?
Generally, I read with a pencil in hand and underline key passages. Never a pen, mind you—that would be too permanent and spoil it for whoever owns the book next. I also carry a moleskine notebook with me to make any extended notes on a given book, and, indeed, on any conversation or thing I see or hear that may be useful. I chose moleskine because I gather that Ernest Hemingway used them. A vain indulgence, I’m afraid. I also keep a daily journal where, if a book is particularly important or insightful, I will make note.
If you could study under any theologian in church history (excluding those men in Scripture), who would it be and why?
Yikes. That is a tough question. Luther would be an obvious choice because of his passion for the gospel and his sense of humour; Thomas Aquinas was no doubt a great teacher, though, as a Protestant, I would clearly have issues with him on key points; and Gregory Nazianzus would have been a remarkable figure to work under, especially on the issue of connecting the doctrine of God to worship. But, on balance, I think I’d have to opt for John Owen: massive learning, keen theological insight, passionate churchman, and fine preacher.
To be continued in part 2...
Welcome back to the conclusion of my interview with Ken Sande, the founder and president of
Peacemaker Ministries. Read part one of the interview
here.
Ken, what single bit of counsel has made the most significant difference in your effective use of time?
Jonathan Edwards’s Resolution #5: “Resolved, never to lose one moment of time; but improve it the most profitable way I possibly can.” I reflect on this resolution regularly. I don’t even come close to living up to it, but Edwards’s example spurs me on.
What single bit of counsel has made the most significant difference in your leadership?
I lead of team of highly motivated and creative people who are trying to serve the church around the world. We simply could not do this if they saw this as merely being an 8-5 job. Therefore, rather than forcing my vision and ideas on them, I’ve learned (often through their feedback) that I have to take time to listen to them, understand their passions, learn from their experience and insights, and guide the way in developing a sense of ownership in a shared vision and strategy that every one of us wholeheartedly and passionately supports.
Where in ministry are you most regularly tempted to discouragement?
I am frequently discouraged by how little of what I think I need to do I actually accomplish. This has been a lifelong struggle: I always want to do more than I am able to do. Coupled with this is my weakness to commit to things I’m unable to follow through on in a timely manner. With my dear wife’s help, I am steadily learning to accept a wisdom principle David Powlison shared with me many years ago: “Not every opportunity constitutes a calling.” Bit by bit, I’m learning to pray more about opportunities before I commit to them and seek to discern those few very important things God wants me to do at any given time.
Do you exercise? If so, what do you do? If not, why not? (Please be specific.)
I run 3-4 miles at least five times a week with longer runs on weekends. I also have a universal gym and use it to maintain muscle tone three times a week. My favorite exercise is simply getting outdoors and hiking through the Beartooth Mountains.
Currently, what sport do you like to play and/or watch?
My family owned a ranch when I was young, so I spent most of my free time riding horses and working cattle rather than playing team sports. (One of my favorite spectator sports is still watching cutting horses work cattle, which is one of the most remarkable examples you’ll ever see of a man and an animal working in complete synchronization.) I have lately developed a strong interest in football, since my son is playing tight end and defensive back for Central High School in Billings. My wife is actually more knowledgeable of this sport than I am, so she is steadily bringing me up to speed.
What do you do for leisure?
My favorite leisure activity is to simply enjoy my family in conversation, laughter, games, or watching classic movies. When we have more time together, I love to hike, backpack, or cross country ski in the Beartooth Mountains south of Billings. A few years ago, our family had the privilege of taking snowcoaches to Old Faithful Lodge in Yellowstone National Park on New Year’s Day with David Powlison’s family. Another year, Scott Somerville’s family (from Covenant Life Church) came out to Montana to backpack with us. I’ve invited C.J. out to go backpacking several times, but I finally got the distinct impression that he was not as enamored as I am with climbing up mountains and sleeping on the ground.
If you were not in ministry, what occupational path would you have chosen?
My professional education was in mechanical engineering and law. If I wasn’t in ministry, I would have pursued a career that coupled these two professions.
January 6, 2010 by C.J. Mahaney
Categories: Conflict | Interviews
Ken Sande has written the finest book I’ve read on the topic of conflict resolution. It’s titled
The Peacemaker: A Biblical Guide to Resolving Personal Conflict (Baker, 2004). I have read and re-read it over the years and I have recommended it to pastors and churches around this country. And given that
The Peacemaker has now been published in ten languages, I’m sure this book has spread around the world, too. It is on my short list of must-reads for every pastor.
Ken Sande lives Billings, Montana. He is an attorney and the president of
Peacemaker Ministries, an initiative he founded 25 years ago. There is much to learn from Ken and I am thankful that he’s taken some time to answer a few questions about life and ministry.
Meet Ken Sande.
Thanks for your time, Ken! Please describe your morning devotions. What time do you wake up in the morning? How much time do you spend reading, meditating, praying, etc.? What are you presently reading?
I wake up at 5:30 and spend the first 60 minutes of the day with the Lord. To wake my mind up, I first read from
The Valley of Vision and Spurgeon’s
Morning and Evening. I then read a Psalm (to inspire praise) or a chapter in Proverbs (to be warned and gain wisdom for the day), and then a chapter in the Bible that my church has designated for the day (currently I’m in the book of Acts), which I also discuss with my family at dinner. I keep a journal of the insights God gives me from this reading. I then spend 10-15 minutes memorizing and meditating on Scripture passages or quotes from the saints that are especially meaningful to me (which I organize on my iPaq in a system that allows me to memorize and review passages on a progressive daily, weekly, and monthly basis). I spend the balance of my devotional time with prayer for my family, church, and ministry.
What book(s) are you currently reading in these three categories: (a) for your soul, (b) for pastoral ministry, or (c) for personal enjoyment?
For my soul, I am reading J.I. Packer’s
Knowing God, which is one of my all time favorites. (My entire staff is currently reading this book as well.) For pastoral ministry, I am reading Tim Laniak’s
While Shepherds Watch Their Flocks (which is featured in our new
Leadership Opportunity resource set). For personal enjoyment, I’m reading Shelby Foote’s three volume narrative on
The Civil War. (Quite an irony, I know, a peacemaker enjoying books on war; the reason is that I find many parallels between military wars and the spiritual warfare I deal with through my ministry.)
Apart from Scripture, what book do you most frequently re-read and why?
I first read J.I. Packer’s
Knowing God in my late twenties and have gone back to it again and again to refresh my awe for God by drawing on Packer’s remarkable insights into the Lord’s holiness and love.
When you finish a book, what system have you developed in order to remember and reference that book in the future?
I highlight key passages in books as I read them, and then transfer select quotes into my memory/meditation system so that I can reflect on them on a regular basis. I often pick up favorite books and thumb through them, reviewing many of the highlighted sections.
If you could study under any theologian in church history (excluding those men in Scripture), who would it be and why?
I could happily listen to J.I. Packer read a telephone book; I just love his accent. Fortunately, when I’ve heard him teach, he has always dealt with far weightier content, always with a humility, clarity, and sense of humor that I find to be both winsome and edifying. I own many of the books he has authored and refer to them again and again.
What single piece of counsel (or constructive criticism) has most improved your preaching?
I teach far more frequently than I preach, and focus almost exclusively on the practical peacemaking message of Scripture. The most important advice I’ve ever received is “Be true to the intent of the passage (rather than reading my own meaning into it), keep it simple, and make it real and relevant through personal stories.” I’ve found this to be especially important with a topic as challenging as peacemaking.
First, peacemaking is a highly theological topic. Justice, reconciliation, relationships, church unity, and our witness for Christ are on the line when we are in conflict. Therefore it is critical that rather than simply following our own feelings or ideas, we accurately discern what God is promising and commanding.
Second, when emotions rise (which is usually the case in conflict), rational thinking usually declines. Therefore it is helpful to organize God’s peacemaking principles in simple, memorable terms that provide a clear track to run on (which is why I rely so heavily on acrostics like the “4 Gs,” the “7As,” and the “PAUSE” principle of negotiating).
Third, peacemaking is challenging and sometimes seems impossible. If all I do is teach the principles, people can easily think, “That may work for someone who is an expert like Ken, but it won’t work for someone as messed up as me.” But when I add a personal example of my own failings as a husband, father, or mediator, and then describe how God graciously forgives me and redeems the situation as I apply his principles, many people later tell me, “When you shared that story, I realized you struggle with the same sins I struggle with, and that God’s grace can work through me as it did through you.”
What books on preaching, or examples of it, have you found most influential in your own preaching?
I have been blessed to sit under two of the best preachers I know for the last 25 years: Rev. Al Edwards and Rev. Alfred Poirier from my home church, Rocky Mountain Community Church. Most of what I’ve learned about preaching and teaching has come through their examples. Their careful exegesis, thoughtful organization, relevant applications, and timely humor have shaped my teaching.
To be continued in part 2...
It’s not every day you meet a seminary president who blends a scholar’s mind with a missionary heart and a love of sports. And somewhere between leading
Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary (Wake Forest, NC), writing books, traveling the world to preach the gospel, training the next generation of pastors and missionaries, and watching ESPN, my friend Danny Akin took a few moments for an interview.
Thank you for your time, Danny. Please describe your morning devotions. What time do you wake up in the morning? How much time do you spend reading, meditating, praying, etc.? What are you presently reading?
People who know me know that I am not a morning person! In fact I think a good morning starts around 9:00. However, I normally get up around 6:45–7:00. My morning devotion is very brief but it fits who I am. I will pray to the Lord three specific texts of Scripture: Romans 12:1-2, Galatians 2:20 and Philippians 1:21. I ask the Lord that these Scriptures in particular would guide my thoughts and actions throughout the day. Further, I am wired in such a way that in the morning I engage the Lord in normal conversation as I am preparing to leave the house and go to whatever responsibility I may have. So there is conversation taking place over about an hour’s period of time. Some days that conversation is far more intense. I do not have a particular book that I am reading for morning devotion other than the Bible. I readily confess this is not an area of strength for me as I see things. It is an area of perpetual struggle.
What book(s) are you currently reading in these three categories: (a) for your soul, (b) for pastoral ministry, or (c) for personal enjoyment?
Currently I am reading several books as is usually the case. I have been reading a biography on the wonderful missionary Henry Martyn. Nothing has fed my soul like missionary biography. I am also reading the newest book by Tim Keller entitled
Counterfeit Gods, as well as a book on the wonderful Baptist preacher and theologian John Broadus. I am almost always reading a book on 1) missionary biography and 2) theology and 3) biblical studies. I have just finished reading Mark Dever and Michael Lawrence’s superb book on penal substitution and Mark Driscoll’s forthcoming book on doctrine. Both books were food for the soul as well as theologically informative. These are the kind of things that I read.
Apart from Scripture, what book do you most frequently re-read and why?
I have reread many times Francis Schaeffer’s book
How Should We Then Live. It radically transformed my way of thinking about the Christian life when I was a Bible college student, and I continually return to it for great encouragement to my soul and mind. I also have read repeatedly
The Anabaptist Story by William Estep. These faithful brothers whose lives were cut short have always been a challenge and encouragement to me so I have returned to this work on a number of occasions. Perhaps no book has been more of a blessing to me than
To The Golden Shore, the biography of Adoniram Judson. Each time I have read the book my soul has been lifted and my heart convicted with respect to my pathetic service to our Lord Jesus. Judson and his three wives are real heroes of the faith. My admiration for them cannot be put into words.
When you finish a book, what system have you developed in order to remember and reference that book in the future?
I mark every book that I read with both a highlighter and a pen. Then when I reread it, I am able to move through it more quickly, though sometimes I see new things the second time through that I missed the first time! I do not have any detailed system of referencing a particular book. Usually, I am able to recall what is there and go back to it. If it is something I deem especially significant, I will make a copy of that particular page and file it. I always reference any item so that I know the source. This is very important with respect to sermon notes. Of course, the books that I have forgotten, I have forgotten!
If you could study under any theologian in church history (excluding those men in Scripture), who would it be and why?
That is a very good question. I would love to have studied under Calvin but lived next door to Luther! I think Calvin would have been such a great blessing to my mind as well as my soul, while Luther would have kept me balanced and laughing! I would love to have sat under Augustine. What an incredibly brilliant mind. And of course, I would have benefited greatly to have studied with Jonathan Edwards or the Princeton theologians like Hodge, Warfield and Machen. I would also love to have studied under James Boyce and John Broadus. The fact is each of these men has greatly impacted my life through their writings. What an incredible privilege it would have been to actually have conversed with them and sat under their instruction in person. Perhaps in heaven, something like that will take place.
What single piece of counsel (or constructive criticism) has most improved your preaching?
I would say that being open to critique and criticism is the most important counsel I have received and could pass on. I am often fond of saying in my preaching classes, “What you say is more important than how you say it, but how you say it has never been more important.” What we say, the content exposition and theology of Scripture, must be of first importance. However, in the age in which we live, how we say it is crucially important. I believe it is a sin to make the Word of God boring. Therefore, we should both have something to say and we should say it well.
What books on preaching, or examples of it, have you found most influential in your own preaching?
Let me answer this question in this way. I believe good preachers listen to and read great preachers. My own personal approach to preaching has been greatly influenced by both the preaching and the writings of men like John MacArthur, Bryan Chappell, Ramesh Richard, Adrian Rogers, Jerry Vines, Paige Patterson, John Piper, Alistair Begg, and Steven Olford. Their books, other writings and preaching have greatly shaped and influenced my own approach to the assignment of biblical proclamation. Each of these men has contributed significantly to my life in that regard. The fact is I have more than 5,000 cassette tapes and CDs of the preaching of these men. I continually go back to them for nourishment for my soul as well as insight in how to approach the biblical text. Let me add that in recent years I have been blessed by the preaching of Matt Chandler, Mark Dever, Mark Driscoll, C.J. Mahaney, James Merritt, David Platt and Robert Smith.
To be continued in part two...
Welcome back to the continuation and conclusion of my interview with pastor and author Kevin DeYoung. Read part one of the interview
here.
Kevin, what single bit of counsel has made the most significant difference in your effective use of time?
I am always struggling to use my time well. I do a lot, but I think in the midst of doing a lot I hide a lot of laziness. The best counsel I received was to take a Sabbath. It is really true that God will give us grace to accomplish more in six days than in seven if we trust him enough to rest.
What single bit of counsel has made the most significant difference in your leadership?
I’ll give you three things I’ve learned or heard from others: (1) Except in the rarest of circumstances, don’t move ahead unless you’ve worked to get your other leaders on board. (2) You are the pastor for the whole church, not just for the group that likes you the most. (3) Remember how Jonathan Edwards got fired: don’t think that writing good papers to prove your point is sufficient for casting a vision or getting your goals accomplished. Leadership is about your relationship with others.
Where in ministry are you most regularly tempted to discouragement?
Of course, it can be discouraging when people criticize you or forget how you’ve cared for them. But honestly I am most discouraged by the coldness of my affections, my selfishness, and my shortcomings as a pastor.
Do you exercise? If so, what do you do? If not, why not? (Please be specific.)
I exercise more in the 7-8 outdoor months in Michigan. From April-mid November, I run regularly, probably 4 times a week (usually 3 miles) during the summer and once or twice a week in the spring and fall. During the winter I run sparingly. I really like to exercise (running, swimming, push-ups, whatever), but I don’t do it as much as I’d like.
Currently, what sport do you like to play and/or watch?
I like almost any sport. I like to play ultimate frisbee (even if C.J. says it’s not a sport) and basketball. I follow college basketball and college football (Spartans), NFL (Bears; what a dismal year), NHL a little (Blackhawks), and MLB the most (White Sox).
What do you do for leisure?
Play with my kids, go out with my wife, read, write, watch sports.
If you were not in ministry, what occupational path would you have chosen?
Something in politics or academia.
Kevin, thanks for the interview (although it grieves me to see ultimate frisbee in the same sentence as basketball!).
Seriously though, thank you in particular for the time you have devoted to writing. You have served us well with your gift. I want as many people as possible to read your stuff. That is why I promote your books wherever I go.
In fact, your books will be the topic of my next blog post.
Thank you, my friend!
I first met Kevin DeYoung in the pages of his book
Why We’re Not Emergent (Moody, 2008). Somewhere around page 50 I became his fan. Since that time I’ve also had the privilege and joy of becoming his friend.
Kevin is the senior pastor of
University Reformed Church in East Lansing, Michigan, and the author of four books (more on his books in a forthcoming blog post). I asked him 14 questions on topics like books, devotions, preaching, and sports, which he was happy to answer.
Meet my friend Kevin DeYoung.
Kevin, thank you for your time! Please describe your morning devotions. What time do you wake up in the morning? How much time do you spend reading, meditating, praying, etc.? What are you presently reading?
We have four small children so my sleep pattern is somewhat dependent on how (if!) they all slept. But usually I wake up between 6:30-6:45, a little later if it is my day off (Monday), or if I had a late meeting the night before. On average I spend about an hour in morning devotions. I start by reading 5-10 pages of some classic Christian book (
The Rare Jewel of Christian Contentment at present). Then I sing a Psalm. Then I read 3-4 chapters from the Bible. I’ve used lots of different reading plans. Right now I’m using a plan that gets me through the whole Bible once a year and Psalms/Proverbs twice. I am in the minor prophets right now. After reading, I work on some Scripture memory, the second half of Romans 12 at the moment. Finally I spend about 25 minutes in prayer, often on a walk if it is not too cold outside. None of these segments take too terribly long, so I’m usually done in an hour or a little more.
What book(s) are you currently reading in these three categories: (a) for your soul, (b) for pastoral ministry, or (c) for personal enjoyment?
For my soul:
The Rare Jewel of Christian Contentment by Jeremiah Burroughs;
Forerunner of the Great Awakening: Sermons by Theodorus Jacobus Frelinghuysen edited by Joel Beeke;
Letters of John Newton
For pastoral ministry:
Heresy: A History of Defending the Truth by Alistair McGrath;
Mortal Follies: Episcopalians and the Crisis of Mainline Christianity by William Murchison;
The Holy Spirit by Sinclair Ferguson; commentaries on Mark
For personal enjoyment:
Macbeth;
The Predictioneer’s Game: Using the Logic of Brazen Self-Interest to See and Shape the Future by Bruce Bueno de Mesquita;
Signature in the Cell: DNA and the Evidence for Intelligent Design by Stephen C. Meyer
Apart from Scripture, what book do you most frequently re-read and why?
I’ve read Calvin’s
Institutes several times. I try to go back to it every few years. The theology is rich, passionate, biblical, and ministers to my soul. I see new things every time I read the
Institutes. Plus, Calvin, especially in the
Battles translation, is easier to read than Jonathan Edwards and many of the Puritans.
When you finish a book, what system have you developed in order to remember and reference that book in the future?
Sadly, I have no system in place. I’ve tried a few different times to implement something, but I didn’t stick with it. If I see an article in a magazine or journal that I like I’ll make a copy and put it in my files (arranged by topics). But for books I just underline, write in the margins and hope I remember where things are later.
If you could study under any theologian in church history (excluding those men in Scripture), who would it be and why?
That’s a hard one. I could learn a lot from so many—Augustine, Calvin, Edwards. But I would pick John Newton. He was not the most prolific theologian, but I figure I can always read Luther or Owen today, but I can’t get the man John Newton. He seems so wise, balanced, and godly. He would make a great mentor, especially for a pastor. A close second would be Irenaeus or one of the other Church Fathers, just because they were not far removed from the Apostles.
What single piece of counsel (or constructive criticism) has most improved your preaching?
If people walk away from your sermons and think you are really smart, you probably have preached a bad sermon. At first I thought it was good if people were impressed by my learning, but now I see that wowing people with my studies is exactly the wrong thing to do. Along these lines, I’ve heard Earl Palmer say that he aims at the high school junior or senior in his sermon. This makes sense to me. A high school senior is used to thinking (we hope) and can handle new ideas and concepts (we hope), but we should not assume he has a deep background in the Bible and theology. That’s a good target audience.
What books on preaching, or examples of it, have you found most influential in your own preaching?
The best book on preaching is
Preaching and Preachers by Martyn Lloyd-Jones. John Stott’s
Between Two Worlds is a close second. Spurgeon’s
Lectures to My Students is also one of my favorites.
I have benefited from listening to many preachers, including: John Piper, Alistair Begg, Tim Keller, Mark Dever, C.J. Mahaney. I don’t think most sermons read very well in print, but Martyn Lloyd-Jones and J.C. Ryle are notable exceptions.
We will pick up here in part two of my interview with my friend Kevin DeYoung.
Video of C.J.’s conversation with Bob Kauflin and Jeff Purswell, recorded at our WorshipGod09 conference, is now online. To watch the 70-minute video, click here: “Lessons Learned from Three Decades of Leading.” Or watch it here: